[Silver&BlackAttack]

Does anyone know of a store in Phoenix, Tempe or Glendale Arizona that sells the APE tensioners, in stock?

thanks.

 

[DaveL]

Just be careful there. A manual adjuster can, and often does, result in far greater damage than just leaving the automatic in place. The automatic is just that, 'automatic'. Kind of neat, when you stop to think about it. Why install something you have to keep fidling with. The big problem here is that a manual adjuster is sometimes very difficult to set properly. I recently opened up a GZX-R1100 motor to find that the manual adjuster had been adjusted way, way too tight and had caused the cam chain to cut all the way through the guides. Here again the automatic would have saved him a bunch a money. Certain bikes may have a history of problems with the automatic or if you're building a monster motor where modified camshaft specs may require a fixed adjuster than you may want to consider it.

 

[wishbone]

a manual tensioner will always be better than a spring loaded or hydraulic type. the auto-type tensioners can back-out during high revs on any sportbike leading to valve train damage or even severe engine failure due to timing chain breakage . a "properly adjusted" manual tensioner is a must for any high performance street / race bike .

 

[DaveL]

Sorry there Wishbone, but no cigar. As I said earlier, an automatic is the best way to go on most bikes. That's why all bikes come with 'automatic' adjusters, not manual ones. Most bikes did, some years ago, come standard with manual adjusters. Unfortunately few riders ever maintained them properly if at all. I rarely see problems with automatic adjusters today but routinely see severely screwed up cam chain systems directly resulting from improperly adjusted manual systems. Don't get me wrong I install manual chain guides on the monster motors we build and for good reason. But your statement is way out of line when you attempt to apply it to every bike out there. If all bikes had them there would be chain of cam chain repair shops springing up all over the place. We don’t want to be giving everybody bad advice.

 

[wishbone]

i said ......for any high performance / race bike . not the sunday driven honda shadow . i wonder if any racers ( drag / super bike ) keep the stock tensioners ? if it comes down to maintenance issues ....well.....what can i say .
you win :clap

 

[DaveL]

Now you're back-peddling a bit there Wishbone. You said 'all' high performance bikes, not the everyday cruiser. Every factory 'high performance' sportbike such as the ZX-10, ZX-12, ZX-14, Hayabusa, GSX-R1000, R1, etc all come equipped with manual adjusters. Can you figure out why? Why isn't the far less expensive manual adjuster standard fare if it's better, as you claim? The reason is that the manual adjuster is much better for the overwhelming majority of bikes. I have 165,000 miles on my 96 ZX-11. I built the motor at 50,000 to deliver just over 170 HP. I elected to keep the manual adjuster because of its obvious advantages. The manual adjuster works just fine. Maybe the engineers know what their doing. Ya think? Lets be clear for the readers. The only applications for manual adjusters are modified bikes with exaggerated valve spring rates and cam profiles that greatly extend the requirements. If pushed to the limits many things must be altered. A little bit of knowledge is a dangereous thing. If everyone took your advice the engine builders would be forever grateful.

 

[wishbone]

perhaps you should re-read your statements there dave . where does it state in any of my posts that i am against the use of manual chain tensioners ???? the fact remains that ....hydraulic and / or automatic adjuster type tensioners can and have on occaision , backed out comming off the throttle during a high rev pass . this in turn ...momentarily puts the cams out of time and CAN cause valve damage , which in turn CAN cause engine failure . if a person is unable to propperly adjust a manual type tensioner and screws up the chain and its relative components......that would be human error not mechanical .
your posts on this topic are contradictory and have no logical explanations . factory bikes equiped with automatic / hydraulic tensioners are there for maintenance or "worry" free reasons . a manual tensioner is and always will be far better alternative ( WHEN PROPERLY ADJUSTED) than an automatic / hydraulic type tensioner . it all comes down to a maintenance issue .....for obvious reasons , a manual type tensioner will require more periodic maintenance than an " automatic / hydraulic tensioner " . automatic tensioners are just one attempt by engineers to minimize the cost of routine maintenance to save the consumer some $$$ in the long run . so......... whether you ride on the street or race on a track or on a dragstrip ........a manual tensioner wins .....hands down .
perhaps YOU should equip your bikes with the worry free automatic chain tensioners you so defend and leave the manual tensioners to the guys that ride hard .:clap

 

[DaveL]

You said, quote:
[ A manual tensioner will “always” be better than a spring loaded or hydraulic type. the auto-type tensioners can back-out during high revs on "any" sportbike leading to valve train damage or even severe engine failure due to timing chain breakage. a "properly adjusted" manual tensioner is a must for "any" high performance street / race bike .]

Sorry, I took what you said at face value. I was attempting to warn others of the less than enlightened advice you were giving. I see this sort of thing all the time on motorcycle web sites as well-meaning individuals pass out absolutely terrible advice and novices will rush right out and mess up their motorcycles. The key blunder in your above statement are the words 'always' and ‘any' high performance street bike. Your later posts seem to ignore everything you said. It’s a clever trick if you can pull it off.

I own a full service performance shop. We are building five to ten performance motors at any given time, so I’m well aware of the occasional application for a manual adjuster. But I’m also aware of the advantages of the industry standard (automatic adjuster). I have seen engines damaged by automatic cam chain adjusters but I’ve seen even more unfortunate situations directly resulting from installations of the dreaded manual adjuster. It boggles the mind to contemplate how many mangled bikes we would have if all were equipped with manual adjusters. It’s so easy to rattle off blanket statements when you simply don’t have a clue. As the saying goes, a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous thing.

 

[wishbone]

DaveL said:
Now you're back-peddling a bit there Wishbone. You said 'all' high performance bikes, not the everyday cruiser. Every factory 'high performance' sportbike such as the ZX-10, ZX-12, ZX-14, Hayabusa, GSX-R1000, R1, etc all come equipped with manual adjusters. Can you figure out why? Why isn't the far less expensive manual adjuster standard fare if it's better, as you claim? The reason is that the manual adjuster is much better for the overwhelming majority of bikes. I have 165,000 miles on my 96 ZX-11. I built the motor at 50,000 to deliver just over 170 HP. I elected to keep the manual adjuster because of its obvious advantages. The manual adjuster works just fine. Maybe the engineers know what their doing. Ya think? Lets be clear for the readers. The only applications for manual adjusters are modified bikes with exaggerated valve spring rates and cam profiles that greatly extend the requirements. If pushed to the limits many things must be altered. A little bit of knowledge is a dangereous thing. If everyone took your advice the engine builders would be forever grateful.

i do believe these are your statements daveL ......so let me get this straight , you prefer manual tensioners now..........seems to me you can't decide on which BS to fling around .........one minute you're ranting about auto adjust tensioners and the next ....manual tensioners , :crackup

 

[wishbone]

DaveL said:
Sorry there Wishbone, but no cigar. As I said earlier, an automatic is the best way to go on most bikes. That's why all bikes come with 'automatic' adjusters, not manual ones. Most bikes did, some years ago, come standard with manual adjusters. Unfortunately few riders ever maintained them properly if at all. I rarely see problems with automatic adjusters today but routinely see severely screwed up cam chain systems directly resulting from improperly adjusted manual systems. Don't get me wrong I install manual chain guides on the monster motors we build and for good reason. But your statement is way out of line when you attempt to apply it to every bike out there. If all bikes had them there would be chain of cam chain repair shops springing up all over the place. We don’t want to be giving everybody bad advice.

wait a minute.......:confused ..........is this you again daveL ????
get your facts in order before you try and share you obvious LACK of knowledge with all of us . :think

 

[DaveL]

Good grief, Wisbone, this really isn't all that complicated. Let's try this one more time. Both manual and automatic cam chain adjusters have their place. That means that neither system is the "best for all applications", which is what you seem to be implying. Automatic systems are superior for the overwhelming majority of applications, which is why nearly all sportbikes come equipped with them. Are you following me so far? On those bikes where the cam profiles, valve clearances, spring rates, etc. have been altered, a manual adjuster may be advisable. That does not mean, however, that they should be thrown in on every engine having a spark plug. So, it isn't a matter of either system being the only way to go. You have to look at the specific application. You can't just make an observation in your own little world and then rush right out and suggest that all bikes will be better off that way. The fact that the fastest bikes on two wheels come equipped with automatic adjusters should give you a clue. There are also a num,ber of other factors to consider as well. The manual system must checked on a reqular basis for proper adjustment as they will 'not' automatically take up slack. Some bikes have a history of automatic adjuster problems or associated failures and switching to a manual adjuster may be advisable, especially if upgrades are not offered.

To sum this up, your recommendation of throwing away a perfectly good automatic adjuster is way off the mark. As I said before, this would result in a rash of destroyed cam chain guides and other related parts. One of the problems with a manual adjuster is getting it set properly. On some bikes this is very difficult to do. I rarely see bikes with their rear drive chain adjusted properly and you think these guys are going to maintain an unseen manual cam chain adjuster? Not likely.

 

[Particle Man]

this thead is hilarious :laughing

 

[bmblebee]

Hey DaveL...I don't know about your "monster motors"...but I do know about Honda's...especially 600's and their CCT's...

I put 2 OEM lifters on my '04 F4i in less than 9K miles, under warranty...because they failed...

I put an APE manual lifter on my F4i and haven't had ANY problems in the 10K miles I have put on the bike since.

I have adjusted it once.

The directions are simple...however, when I installed my CCT lifter...I removed the cam cover so I could eyeball the lifter contacting the chain.

If you overtighten the lifter, when you start the bike...you will hear a high pitched whine...like a turbo or 'copter...and you can adjust it back enough to eliminate the whine...

Since I see you ride a 10 year old Kawi...maybe you should leave advice to Honda owners to those who ride them and have experienced the CCT problems...


Of course...as a curb monkey...I should expect it...

 

[DaveL]

Bmblebee, it sounds like you've been stung a few times too many. There's really no point in attempting to talk logic with you. By the way, I assume your talking about a cam chain adjuster and not a 'lifter'. You'll have to look at a Harley or some of the really old stuff to find any lifters these days. You're correct, you don't know about our monster motors, in fact it would seem that you don't know much about motors period. As I have already said numerous times I also use manual cam chain adjusters (lifters to you) on nearly all our big motors and for good reason. That does not mean that I recommend that everyone rush right out and cram one into their modern day sportbike. I’ve tried to explain why, but that seems to be beyond your grasp.

 

[pauldun170]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but DaveL has his own shop and works on variety of bikes.

Last I heard he doesn't ride that ZX-11 much nowadays because he is busy working on bikes of all flavors.

+1 to DaveL on the tensioner. Unless Silver&BlackAttack wants to respond with why he actually needs the manual tensioner over the OEM unit.

 

[Mad Kaw]

Question for DaveL, when did Honda stop using the cct they had in the 80's?
The cct's that my V45 & 65 sabre's used would lock after the spring or oil pressure adjusted them. They worked kind of like the part that holds a screen door open.
Did honda have problems with them or is it cheaper to make them the way they are now?

 

[bmblebee]

DaveL...in the Honda motor...the Cam Chain Tensioner is actually 4 main parts, if you include the guides...it is the lifter that fails. Vibration and wear allow the spring to weaken which allows the lifter to back out. this is what causes the "BB's in a beer can" noise between 3500 and 5500 rpms. Part 5 in the fiche

http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/200_0320/cam_chain/cam_chain.cfm?man=ho&groupid=5350&parent=5320

That is the part that has to be replaced...It is a weak part...it has be on the recall list for years. I have yet to see a claim under warranty refused. They know what the problem is and they have chosen not to re-engineer it...it is cheaper to fix the part.

The APE Manual tensioner lifter removes the movement of the lifter and remains static...it rarely has to be adjusted...when adjustments become regular...it is time to look for chain wear or guides or another internal issue.

Now for someone who can barely change their own oil, I wouldn't recommend the manual lifter. But for people who can manage the repair and maintenance of the manual lifter...it's the way to go...

 

[DaveL]

Bmblebee, I think we fully agree on your bike. As I mentioned earlier, one of the prime reasons to switch to a manual is to get out from under a specific failure prone automatic design. Some of them just aren't worth fiddling around with.

 

[Silver&BlackAttack]

No problems from me. I installed a manual APE brand CCT and my Honda runs great. I did the same thing as Bmblebee. I installed it kinda on the tight side so there was a "whine" present, but i then backed it off until all the whine went away. I would recomend installing it as per the APE instructions... 1/4 to 3/8 chain deflection between the cam gears. Requires removing the "valve" cover.

I don't think I'll go back to a stock tensioner again. The bike is a street bike only.

I agree, Honda CBR tensioner lifters are junk. ... not including the 2002 and newer CBR because i haven't heard anything about the CCT lifter failing on them...except for one 1000RR w/8000 miles on the engine.

 

[Mad Kaw]

Silver&BlackAttack said:
No problems from me. I installed a manual APE brand CCT and my Honda runs great. I did the same thing as Bmblebee. I installed it kinda on the tight side so there was a "whine" present, but i then backed it off until all the whine went away.

After adjusting the cct this way I would recommend taking off the valve cover to make sure you have the right amount of chain deflection between the gears.