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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
February 10, 2006


AMA Pro Racing confirmed today that the Buell XBRR motorcycle, the race-kitted variant of the road-going XB12R, is eligible for competition in the AMA Formula Xtreme Series.

In making the announcement AMA Pro Racing Director of Competition, Merrill Vanderslice noted that AMA Pro Racing technical personnel have inspected the motorcycle and it was determined that Buell has met the requirements for the XBRR to be eligible for AMA Formula Xtreme.

“By design, Formula Xtreme rules are the most liberal of all the classes within the AMA Superbike Championship,” stated Vanderslice. “The class was created with broad equipment parameters and air-cooled V-twins are afforded the most latitude. Buell has based this motorcycle on its XB12R street bike and the modifications made are within the rules allowed in the class.”

Vanderslice acknowledged that a press release distributed by Buell to announce the motorcycle may have created some confusion as to the bike’s eligibility.
“Regardless of the wording in the release, the bottom line is that Buell has produced a racetrack version of an existing street motorcycle and modified it within the rules,” he noted. “We were aware of Buell’s plans and inspected the motorcycle on Friday, Feb. 3 as part of the approval process.

“The intent of the Formula Xtreme class is to include a diverse group of motorcycles, and we welcome Buell’s increased participation in AMA championship racing. We are confident the company’s inclusion will enhance the sport of motorcycle road racing.”

Of course, this won't stop the whiners.
 

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I already said they would approve of it regardless, even if they had built the chassis by KR (which is actually, short of doing that, since the chassis is obviously built by hand) or the if cases were CNC billet ones :rolleyes AMA has added that the "rules allow Broad lattitude" which means they are saying... "we give them broad lattitude in the broad lattitude" of the rules.

FACT IS, there was no way in hell the VR1000 would pass (non-HD made rules) AMA rules (or any superbike rules) and yet they accepted the bike. What makes anybody think it would be any different, Doh!

Yet AMA has disqualified teams on minor technicalities :rolleyes AMA, has once again, proved to be Harley's Harlot.

All, i have to add is that i hope Ducati or japs do the same, just for fun. Especially ducati -- that would be great.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So try to go down to your local Honda dealer and buy a bike just like DuHamel's ride.

Good luck!

Anyway, some are forgeting here that racing is a show, and race track owners are in business to make money. Let's review what the Japanese have been doing to bring in the crowds. Let's see, all four of them have been taking advantage of the rules to cherry pick their class and keep real competition to an absolute minimum. Honda has had FX all to itself for the last two years, and did their absolute best to keep it all as boring and predictable as possible. Now they seem to have a gentleman's agreement with Yamaha, they will contest the 200, then pull out their first string team for the rest of the season and let Yamaha win a few FX titles for a while.

Sorry, but that's not racing, that's just advertising. With the current four classes, the Japanese have done their best keep from actually having to race to win. And tell me, what do you suppose will happen after a few more years of this? Well, the most likely thing is for FX to die of spectator indifference. That would be just fine with the Japanese, all they really want is SuperStock and SuperSport. Why? Because those are all Japanese all of the time classes, nothing but Japan-fours have a chance.

Would that be interesting? Do the Japanese care? Not a chance! They just want the wins for their advertising department, and I'm sure they care nothing at all about putting on a show and bringing in crowds. The only crowds they are interested in is crowds in the showroom.

So you could call this the revolt of the track owners. Sure, you can mouth off all you want about how this is all Harley influence, and yes, they have some. But to say that is to ignore the fact the track owners gave the Japanese a chance to put on a show and produce some real competition, and they showed that they frankly didn't give a damn. They had plenty of influence, enough to get Thunderbikes killed a few years ago, but now the track owners have had enough. Harley didn't have enough pull to force two senior AMA staffers to resign because they were in the pocket of the Japanese. Only the track owners could do that, and they have. So in my mind, this is a flag from the owners to the Japanese. Maybe they should pay a little attention, instead of acting like the Gods of Racing.
 

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Dood, you have so much chit in one post than i have ever seen -- regarding racing that is (because some other harley lover have beat you, hands down, in the dumbass department on non-racing subjects).

First, a FX bike is basically a bunch of kit parts put together -- whilst a bit more liberal in the engine department than WSS (as well as suspension), I assure you i can get a WSS spec bike without a problem. In fact, Spanish Supersport rules were the same as US FX -- except in the engine department which followed WSS rules (not allowing non OEM pistons, rods or crank). And yep, I actually had one offered at a nego 18K (used of course). It just a question of money.

Buell has built a series of "kit" racebikes for simply BS marketing, because he knows well, it is not a fucking kit and it could not be made as one, because it would cost some one in the tens of thousands to build one. 30K is acutally a bargain for what is, for what is a prototype built bike from, virtually, the ground up. A tractor version of first gen. WCM.

To say that "the four" cherry pic" the classes is just :laughing :crackup :lmao They ALL have competitive bikes in 600 and 1000 classes, be it superbike, superstock or supersport. Whether some teams have more resources and/or factory support than others is another issue.

Track owners...please.. most trax in the states are old rat traps, built and designed by second rate engineers -- and by and large poorly maintained at best. Facilities are a fucking joke. The only good show a track owner could put is circus-like event. They should pray every day giving thanks for trackdays (+lack of well deserved lawsuits) and club racing.

Funny thing is that barber -- which is by far, the best maintained track and facilities in the states, has 2 tar seals running the entire track :confused Unbelievable! :shake
 

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karlitos said:First, a FX bike is basically a bunch of kit parts put together -- whilst a bit more liberal in the engine department than WSS (as well as suspension), I assure you i can get a WSS spec bike without a problem. In fact, Spanish Supersport rules were the same as US FX -- except in the engine department which followed WSS rules (not allowing non OEM pistons, rods or crank). And yep, I actually had one offered at a nego 18K (used of course). It just a question of money.
You can't be serious. You've been told that there are only three differences between Formula Xtreme rules and AMA Superbike rules, you've been presented with the AMA roadracing rule book, and you're still claiming that FX bikes are essentially Supersport machines. On Tuesday, Jason DiSalvo went faster on his FX R6 then Roger Hayden and Ben Bostrom did on Superbikes. Somehow, I think it would take more then just a parts kit to achieve that.

karlitos said:To say that "the four" cherry pic" the classes is just :laughing :crackup :lmao They ALL have competitive bikes in 600 and 1000 classes, be it superbike, superstock or supersport. Whether some teams have more resources and/or factory support than others is another issue.
From the time Formula Xtreme switched to 600s until this year, Honda was the only factory to support the class. For 06, Honda is out and Yamaha is in. I would call one factory racing against a field of privateers cherry picking, but hey, that's just me.

That said, the AMA's press release is crap. The frame and swingarm are plainly derived from the long wheelbase XB12Ss, and the press release states they're modified from the XB12R. Unless the AMA's message got garbled somewhere between the tech personel and the guy who made the announcement and the bikes actually bear XB12Ss VINs, it certainly seems like they're in violation of the rules.
 

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sgt.schulz781 said:
You can't be serious. You've been told that there are only three differences between Formula Xtreme rules and AMA Superbike rules, you've been presented with the AMA roadracing rule book, and you're still claiming that FX bikes are essentially Supersport machines. On Tuesday, Jason DiSalvo went faster on his FX R6 then Roger Hayden and Ben Bostrom did on Superbikes. Somehow, I think it would take more then just a parts kit to achieve that.
First of all, WSK puts out something along the lines of 190-210 HP. You are telling a 600 is doing that? okaaaaayyyy

Second, just in case, because it seems you may be TOTALLY clueless :confused Do you have ANY idea what a WSS machine is or the rules?

Let me sum it up engine wise.

AMA=WSS: stock crank (polishing allowed) Stock heads, cases cylinders; coatings allowed. Camshafts allowed, stock lift (duration/timing free), stock size valve, stock throttle bodies, allows head porting; aftermarket ignition, radiator, pipe.

WSS: allows TI valves
AMA must use stock material
WSS: stock injectors
WSS: no limit on gearboxes, except 6 speeds.
AMA: stock gearbox, can only change ratios ONCE, limits on price, must make avail (thus no one offs allowed)
AMA allows changes on cam drive, but must use stock location
AMA allows aftermarket pistons and rods (i believe)

Chasis:

WSS follows standard superstock/supersport rules
AMA: allows in addtion change: forks, wheels (no CF), calipers, mastercylinder.
(same rules until last year for Spanish national, which in 05 went to WSS rules).


Soooooo...compared to bikes Supersport bikes in these parts, the only difference is allowing the use of aftermarket pistons (much easier to build a motor with them) and con rods. Whoooopppie..totally "unobtainable" yesssieeee :rolleyes





From the time Formula Xtreme switched to 600s until this year, Honda was the only factory to support the class. For 06, Honda is out and Yamaha is in. I would call one factory racing against a field of privateers cherry picking, but hey, that's just me.
And your point is... :rolleyes One can say exactly the same about WSBK as well. With Ducati being the only one with factory support.... or say, 125GP, whereas only Aprilia and Derbi did any factory support -- or 250GP whereas only Aprillia had a full factory squad, while Honda did some factory support (like Suzuki does in WSB). But now, as we can see, Ducati dropped their full factory suppor in WSBK also.. another awful "cherry picker" :rolleyes

That said, the AMA's press release is crap. The frame and swingarm are plainly derived from the long wheelbase XB12Ss, and the press release states they're modified from the XB12R. Unless the AMA's message got garbled somewhere between the tech personel and the guy who made the announcement and the bikes actually bear XB12Ss VINs, it certainly seems like they're in violation of the rules.
Like if they fucking care. They just looked at it and said "yep, frame kinda looks like da one th' brochure... Ok Mer, go tell em, that it is fine.. you know to make a diverse group..kinda lika "fermative action" fer race'n"
 

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karlitos said:
First of all, WSK puts out something along the lines of 190-210 HP. You are telling a 600 is doing that? okaaaaayyyy
Why don’t you go back and read what I wrote very carefully. Maybe the second time through you’ll be able to tell whether I claimed DiSalvo’s R6 makes as much horsepower as a Superbike, or lapped faster then some Superbikes. The feel free to head over to roadracingworld and peruse the times from Fontana on the 7th. You’ll find that DiSalvo’s Formula Xtreme bike was 6th fastest on the day, faster then 3 Superbikes and every Superstock bike. Had DiSalvo been at Philip Island, and had he lapped as close to Mladin there as he did at Fontana, only Mladin, Corser, and one other Superbike rider would have been faster.

karlitos said:
Second, just in case, because it seems you may be TOTALLY clueless :confused Do you have ANY idea what a WSS machine is or the rules?

Let me sum it up engine wise.
This is gonna be good.

karlitos said:
AMA=WSS: stock crank (polishing allowed) …cylinders; coatings allowed.
Cylinders may not be altered and cranks may not be polished in WSS. See sections 2.5.6.23 and 2.5.6.29 of the FIM rulebook. How did that go again? “TOTALLY clueless :confused”?

karlitos said:Stock heads, cases
Here’s what the AMA rulebook has to say about heads and cases:

1. Machining, welding and the addition of material are permitted
Not a lot of changes that can’t be made within those rules. Of course, I’m sure headwork won’t result in any extra power.

This is probably a good place to add that I have been highly amused with your preoccupation with the fact that the Buell uses modified cases. Never mind the fact that air cooled twins are allowed unlimited engine mods, modified cases would be allowed even if it was an inline four.

karlitos said:
WSS: allows TI valves
AMA must use stock material
WSS: stock injectors
WSS: no limit on gearboxes, except 6 speeds.
AMA: stock gearbox, can only change ratios ONCE, limits on price, must make avail (thus no one offs allowed)
AMA allows changes on cam drive, but must use stock location
AMA allows aftermarket pistons and rods (i believe)

Chasis:

WSS follows standard superstock/supersport rules
AMA: allows in addtion change: forks, wheels (no CF), calipers, mastercylinder.
(same rules until last year for Spanish national, which in 05 went to WSS rules).
You’re forgetting a few things. FX frames and swingarms may be braced or strengthened in any way, Supersport items must remain stock. Subframes must remain stock in Supersport, they’re free in FX. Lightening modifications are much more permissive in FX, and minimum weights are slightly lower. Clutches and exhaust are slightly more free in FX. Bodywork is completely free in FX. There are many other smaller, less significant differences.


karlitos said:
Soooooo...compared to bikes Supersport bikes in these parts, the only difference is allowing the use of aftermarket pistons (much easier to build a motor with them) and con rods. Whoooopppie..totally "unobtainable" yesssieeee :rolleyes
Maybe things are different in Spain, but here in America, 150hp, 355lb wet, only vaguely related to stock chassis 600s are pretty unobtainable. If you think you can build a 600 that could place top ten in AMA or World Superbike, maybe even qualify for a Moto GP race, I’d encourage you to do so; especially if you can do so with off the shelf parts.
 

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karlitos said:

Buell has built a series of "kit" racebikes for simply BS marketing, because he knows well, it is not a fucking kit and it could not be made as one, because it would cost some one in the tens of thousands to build one. 30K is acutally a bargain for what is, for what is a prototype built bike from, virtually, the ground up. A tractor version of first gen. WCM.
The first gen WCM was a 4 cyl.:confused Your making quite a leap to try and make some point that's lost because your trying to hard to insult everything you can about what's going on in American racing.

Funny thing is that barber -- which is by far, the best maintained track and facilities in the states, has 2 tar seals running the entire track :confused Unbelievable! :shake
And you rode Barber when?
 

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karlitos said:

And your point is...
The point being that all the factories should only be involved with superbike racing, and to a certain extent, FX racing. Leaving supersport and superstock to the non-factory riders. You know, the one's that are supposed to be using those series as stepping stones. That doesn't happen as well if each factory decides to not compete with the others and get their own little championship all to themselves, like it appears sometimes in AMA. Most glaringly FX. Historicly Honda has been the only factory putting any support into the series. Until Suzuki and Yamaha made a big push into the 1000cc FX series, then, suddenly it becomes a 600cc class. And hey presto, Honda back on top. Co-incidently Honda drops out of AMA supersport racing, mainly it appears from lack of competitive machinery inside the rules package. It's all alittle covienent.
One can say exactly the same about WSBK as well. With Ducati being the only one with factory support.... or say, 125GP, whereas only Aprilia and Derbi did any factory support
That's 2 factories, so that's not cherry picking at a factory level.
-- or 250GP whereas only Aprillia had a full factory squad, while Honda did some factory support
Still 2 factories support, so not cherry picking.
(like Suzuki does in WSB).
Wait, now which is it? Is it only Ducati, or do Suzuki offer some factory support too? Because that would be more than one factory supported group in the championship. Not cherry picking.
But now, as we can see, Ducati dropped their full factory support in WSBK also.. another awful "cherry picker" :rolleyes
So who are Lanzi and Bayliss riding for? Looks like full factory to me.:confused
 

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so much talk about a friggin bike


that bike ain't going anywhere without a rider



racing is more about the rider than the hardware,

which just sits there
and may or may not blow up.


teh buell posts lately have been lameO
 

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sgt.schulz781 said:
Why don’t you go back and read what I wrote very carefully. Maybe the second time through you’ll be able to tell whether I claimed DiSalvo’s R6 makes as much horsepower as a Superbike, or lapped faster then some Superbikes. The feel free to head over to roadracingworld and peruse the times from Fontana on the 7th. You’ll find that DiSalvo’s Formula Xtreme bike was 6th fastest on the day, faster then 3 Superbikes and every Superstock bike. Had DiSalvo been at Philip Island, and had he lapped as close to Mladin there as he did at Fontana, only Mladin, Corser, and one other Superbike rider would have been faster.
I see.... Interesting you mention this. Turns out at valencia's national FX race in nov (cold and it rained the following day), the first 2 qualifiers would have qualified 3 and 4th in the WSBK race in april (that enjoyed better climatological conditions).

Spanish FX rules are pretty much superstock rules (near zero engine mods-just FI mapping, cam sprokets, allowing gearbox and radiatotor changes) that also allow wheels, master cyc. and caliper changes.


This is gonna be good.



Cylinders may not be altered and cranks may not be polished in WSS. See sections 2.5.6.23 and 2.5.6.29 of the FIM rulebook. How did that go again? “TOTALLY clueless :confused”?



Here’s what the AMA rulebook has to say about heads and cases:



Not a lot of changes that can’t be made within those rules. Of course, I’m sure headwork won’t result in any extra power.
So you are trying to tell me that polishing the crankshaft is A: makes big power B: is unobtainable?

Or that adding material to the head makes big HP and is also unobtainable? (WSS allow free modification of the head, incl. combustion chambers). Same goes with coating the cycl. walls (which factory stuff is hard to improve on)...

WTF are you talking about? In fact, "IF" needed, any of that can be done by ANY WSS engine builder (or in the states for that matter), duh!

You’re forgetting a few things. FX frames and swingarms may be braced or strengthened in any way, Supersport items must remain stock.
True. But considering that, say the 06 R6 frame is supposedly as stiff as the R7..dont think it will be needing anything.

Again, another "unobtainable" thing that ONLY factory bikes can do, eh?

Subframes must remain stock in Supersport, they’re free in FX. Lightening modifications are much more permissive in FX, and minimum weights are slightly lower. Clutches and exhaust are slightly more free in FX. Bodywork is completely free in FX. There are many other smaller, less significant differences.
Oh, yeah..subframe :rolleyes Clutches and exhaust slightly more free? that is interesting..would like to know what more free is. Especially considering that in FX you pretty much run a stock gearbox and you may modify it ONCE (on a very limited basis) -- whereas WSS allows complete gearbox changes as much as you like. Gearing is just about everything on small powerband motors.

Maybe things are different in Spain, but here in America, 150hp, 355lb wet, only vaguely related to stock chassis 600s are pretty unobtainable. If you think you can build a 600 that could place top ten in AMA or World Superbike, maybe even qualify for a Moto GP race, I’d encourage you to do so; especially if you can do so with off the shelf parts.
Once again, you have not shown that such differences are unobtainable. Unless you think that welding material to heads (if dont at all), polishing a crank or coating a cycl. wall is unobtainable... :rolleyes
 

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SprintST said:
The first gen WCM was a 4 cyl.:confused Your making quite a leap to try and make some point that's lost because your trying to hard to insult everything you can about what's going on in American racing.


And you rode Barber when?


Yes, and it still is. First gen. engine cases were BASED on the R1 -- uuuhhh...just as the Buell is.
 

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either way, legal or not, at least it gives us something interesting to watch in the FX. Not that any roadracing is not interesting, but hey, at least an american bike is in it, and it may be fun to watch, especially if my boy picotte comes down to work on it. :)
 

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karlitos said:
I see.... Interesting you mention this. Turns out at valencia's national FX race in nov (cold and it rained the following day), the first 2 qualifiers would have qualified 3 and 4th in the WSBK race in april (that enjoyed better climatological conditions).

Spanish FX rules are pretty much superstock rules (near zero engine mods-just FI mapping, cam sprokets, allowing gearbox and radiatotor changes) that also allow wheels, master cyc. and caliper changes.
The Spanish Formula Extreme series uses 1000cc motorcycles. AMA FX uses 600cc motorcycles. I tried to come up with a pithy comment to go with this, but I couldn't. I'm just too flabergasted. Wow.

I'd go through the rest of your words, but what's the point? You've already made several things clear.

1. You're not certain what WSS rules are. (The FIM rulebook is available at their site. Feel free to read it.)
2. You have only a vague idea what AMA Formula Xtreme rules are. (Ditto)
3. You have absolutely no idea what Spanish Formula Extreme rules are.
4. You will never, ever admit that AMA Formula Xtreme bikes are modified to a much higher level then Supersport machines, despite AMA FX 600s performing to Superbike levels. (In case you were wondering, Superbike uses 1000cc motorcycles, just like Spanish FX.)
5. You will never admit that it's impossible to reach the level of performance achieved by the factory bikes with off the shelf parts while remaining in the rules.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Well yes, we could talk a little about riders, especially since talking rules with Karlos is an exercise in futility. Unfortunately, Picotte won't be making it, Canadian Honda got sticky about it, so now it will be Steve Crevier, who is also pretty fast. The American team has confirmed Mike Ciccotto, and it looks like Rico Penzkofer and Jeremy McWilliams are pretty much sure things.

Anyone think McWilliams still has it, or is he an old man and past his prime as some have been saying?
 

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I think they allowed it just to get more americans into racing. By the time the word gets spread far enough the rumor will be " Theres a Harley racing that is gonna beat all them Jap bikes." And more Bubbas will watch but hey maybe some of them will get educated about the sport the right way. :shrug
 

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sgt.schulz781 said:
The Spanish Formula Extreme series uses 1000cc motorcycles. AMA FX uses 600cc motorcycles. I tried to come up with a pithy comment to go with this, but I couldn't. I'm just too flabergasted. Wow.

I'd go through the rest of your words, but what's the point? You've already made several things clear.

1. You're not certain what WSS rules are. (The FIM rulebook is available at their site. Feel free to read it.)
2. You have only a vague idea what AMA Formula Xtreme rules are. (Ditto)
3. You have absolutely no idea what Spanish Formula Extreme rules are.

Really, please tell me. Funny because I race Supersport (which are run under WSS rules). AMA FX rules are quite simple. And you are fucking moronic to say I have no idea with Spanish FX rules are. Do you, smart azz? Please LEY ME KNOW.

You will never, ever admit that AMA Formula Xtreme bikes are modified to a much higher level then Supersport machines, despite AMA FX 600s performing to Superbike levels. (In case you were wondering, Superbike uses 1000cc motorcycles, just like Spanish FX.)

They are run a bit higher, in some areas. But once again you failed to make a point on what was A: big difference in HP making B: what is so unobtainable in AMA FX compared to a WSS motor.

5. You will never admit that it's impossible to reach the level of performance achieved by the factory bikes with off the shelf parts while remaining in the rules.
Perhaps you should inform Mr. Noyes about his ignorance when he wrote "Once a bike is homologated with the FIM anyone can go out and buy a streetbike and modify it to Superbike specs if they are skillful enough."

FACT is Alstare, as you know, wanted to hire Biaggi. Suzuki said they could not supply them with a client factory bike. Alstare said, no problem, they would build their own... Seems the crew chief is clueless a i am eh?
 

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I can't wait to tell the guy I know who races AMA on a Factory-supported team that the real reason his bike is down on HP on the Factory Suzuki's (FACT) is because he needs to buy a Spanish-spec engine and build that up. 10% more HP across the board.


/me passes butter to Rob.:runaway
 
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