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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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Huey130,
Your right, Sport Rider doesn't appear to have any more insight into this product than you do. I responded to your comments then as I intend to do with Sport Rider Magazine this time around. There's nothing illegal about being dead wrong, the unfortunate thing about shooting something down without even knowing how it works is that often scares others away from a terrific product. The power of 'popular belief' is an incredible thing. Just look at the multitudes of people that are absolutely positive that Harley Davidson’s are the fastest, smoothest, most reliable, best handling, best engineered motorcycles of all time. Does this make it so?

Most of the Motorcycle Magazines do a good job of evaluating a pair of riding gloves or a tank bra, but anything more technical than that is not worth reading. As in this case, a few Flo-Commander owners took issue with this attack and E-mailed the magazine and got absolutely ridiculous responses. They were riddled with incredible errors and misstatements. For example, one even went on to say that changing main jets couldn't be easier as all you need to do is remove the big access screw below the main jet and make the change. Huh? every bike mechanic knows that the Big 4 haven't used this type of float bowl in two decades, except for the special racing type carbs. This is just one of many such brain dead statements by this author. Why do so many people fear what they don't understand?

I own my own Dyno, a Dynojet 250i with fuel / air monitor and load control. We have installed a great many jet kits and Flo-Commanders and we will continue to do so despite attempts by you and Sport Rider Magazine to deny a really great product a fighting chance. I'll fight to defend the jet kit because they work. Our Dyno testing clearly indicates that the Flo-Commanders are every bit as good a product. My customers tend to be even more excited about the performance benefits of the Flo-Commander.

One more thing. The benefit of a jet kit or a Flo-Commander depends, in large part, on the specific example (bike). As you can tell by just looking at the various jet kits packages. Some kits are quite extensive while others are little more than an empty box. The same is true for the Flo-Commander. Some systems have very small main air jets so there isn’t as much to work with. By chance (or perhaps deliberately) Sport Rider selected the ZX-6 which has extremely small air jets compared to most others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Popular belief?
You have yours, I have mine.
You have your success stories, I have mine.

Now tell me how this is about you being right and me being wrong? Or as you suggest less "insightful"?

I understand it and don't fear it. I just don't think it works. I deny them a fighting chance? You really have a higher opinion of my posts than I thought you did: Thank you.

Come on dude: You like em... I don't. You have "proof" and satified customers. I have a few guys that wanted me to put them on their bike and we didn't like them because we didn't see the claims. I point to a national mag that says the same thing I say and you point to alllll your satisfied customers and claims of improper testing and people that don't enderstand how they work...

Can we just leave it at that?
 

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You almost got the message, but not quite. Either something works or it doesn't. The point of my initial reply was to suggest to you that just because someone else agrees with you doesn't add any credibility to your argument (the Harley reference). I also believe that there are many products on the market that don't work at all, or at least not as advertised. I do, however, feel a certain degree of restraint in attacking a particular product just because it's new, or because I don't understand how it works. I tend to be a bit more receptive to the concept and enjoy ‘getting into' the engineering aspects and the theory. Of course I'm a mechanical engineer and that comes naturally. You'd feel much the same way if some idiot started a topic on how all jet kits don't work at all. You know better and would feel compelled to yell, "Hold on a minute". The same is going on here for me with the Flo-Commander. I haven't installed one (1) unit, like you. I've installed dozens and Dyno tested them all. I also understand how and why they work. The common thread among its detractors is the almost complete misunderstanding of its fundamental operation. Probably another major distinction between our individual situations is that on my very first application, my own heavily modified ZX-11, I picked up over 10 hp in the midrange. That was incredible and it 'got my attention'. Since then my installations have produced differing results. Some just as startling while others struggled to gain even a few HP. As a general rule, however, my customers still like their new jet kits, but the typical Flo-Commander installation generates a far greater improvement as registered on the Dyno and from the customer's own riding experience. Typically they say things like, “It’s like a different motorcycle”. Or “It never ran like this before”. No matter how you look at it, this is exactly the kind of product I want to handle in my shop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Huey130 said:
Can we just leave it at that?
I guess you couldn't.

I understand how it works. Period. Hell even checked my post against their website after you suggested otherwise. So stop using that argument... It's invalid. Yes I based my opinion on two (2) installations. And never claimed otherwise.

You just keep yelling fire in crowded theaters.. I'll believe what I want to belief based upon my experiences and will happily tell others what MY opinions are of this product.

Don't you have a letter to write to Sport Rider or something? As emotional as you get about this product they should really pick you up as a spokesmane! You'd have my vote!

Oh yeah: Does Flo-commander know it doesn't work well on ZX-6s? Maybe they should put that on their website.
 

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Huey130,
It sounds like you’re the one doing all the yelling here. In fact you need to calm down and focus on your arguments.

Again you continue to miss the whole point. You stated that I’ve had my successes and you’ve had yours. You haven’t had ‘any ‘ success with Flo-Commander at all apparently.

As I also indicated, jet kits have a far greater impact on some machines as opposed to others as well. This is because some bikes have far more serious carburetion problems than others. The whole point I'm making here is that it can folly to criticize or even evaluate any product based on one application. I once had a guy tell me that top oil didn't work at all. I asked him how he could tell after just one application. He stated that it made the engine rattle like crazy. "How much did you put in?" I asked. "Four quarts" he replied. He obviously changed his oil with the stuff. Not a very good test.

You say that you understand how the Flo-Commander works. I find this very difficult to believe on several counts. How can you claim that it doesn't work and at the same time understand 'how it works'? Either it works or it doesn't. All my testing indicates that it works, big time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
DaveL said:
Huey130,
It sounds like you’re the one doing all the yelling here. In fact you need to calm down and focus on your arguments.

Again you continue to miss the whole point. You stated that I’ve had my successes and you’ve had yours. You haven’t had ‘any ‘ success with Flo-Commander at all apparently.
Nope not yelling... and the only reason you think I'm jumping around on my arguments is because it's painfully obvious that you are so incredibly biased with this product that you fail to see why I (and Sport Rider magazine) don't seem to buy into it's claims.

I understand how it works. You can take that or leave it... Because I have no problem if you believe me or not... I understand how lot's of things that don't work except in ideal, non-real world situations work. That doesn't mean we should use them all!
No... no success with the two (2) times I've installed them... Good thing I didn't try a ZX-6 as it would of definetly failed... you said that.
I've always had success with jet kits. Always.

Wait: Email just in from someone that arguably knows more than both of us put together, a world renowned tuner and owner of one of the best tuning product manufacturers (who wishes to remain anonymous in this thread so it will not appear as he's 'bagging' a competitor (his words)).. This is his experince with the product and oddly enough it completely substantiates what I and Sport Rider said... Man it sucks that we all don't "understand" don't it? :D

The biggest reason why the flow commander doesn't work as well as a properly designed jet kit is that it uses the main AIR circuit as a primary tuning item - and it's not doing so - it hammering the circuit hard, using it to do one thing and not messing up things so bad that the engine actually reached rich misfire point (but far away from best power fuel rates).
The main AIR circuit is designed to and WORKS to correct the fuel
delivery rate at higher rpms - as in the last 4000 rpm of the powerband on a 12,000 rpm sportbike.
Make the air jet smaller, and it richens overall the mixture, throughout the rpm band AND makes it even richer at 11,000 and 12,000 rpm.
So - if the bike was: Lean at low and mid rpms, and slightly lean at 10,000 and too rich for best power at 11,000 - 12,000 rpm.
and you use a Flo Commander to make the main AIR jet smaller....
The low end gets richer and power gets better, lets say, richer, by "X" amount..
Lowend = + X richer = power better
Midrange = + X richer = power better
10,000 rpm = + X richer and power might be about the same
11-12,000 = +X +X (+ X too rich already when stock!) = less than stock power.
Or, if you lean out the flo commander to get best topend - you'll lose low and mid -
The flow commander aggravates the excessive richness that most zx9's, for example already have.
What's the problem with the users? The bike runs a little better at some rpms and doesn't gain the power it could have if the mixture was right.
That's why they aren't crying loudly - they just don't know.
 

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Huey130,

I know exactly who your anonymous contributor is. I've dealt with him before. Not impressed! I will also not mention his name to respect his wishes, but to participate in an effort to undermine a competitor speaks volumes about his character. Companies that place their focus on attacking the competition instead of touting their own products usually have something to hide. His poor use of the English language doesn't help much either, but that could explain why he's unable to sort this out intelligently.

The primary error he and you are making is by claming that the Flo-Commander essentially focuses on the adjustability of the air jet volumes or air. This feature actually plays only a small role in the true advantage of the system. The major role of the device, and their patent, is the elimination of the air disruption in the vicinity of the air jet inlets. Dynojet actually plugs these jets completely for precisely this reason on many of their jet kits. Dynojet was having serious difficulty tuning their jet kits due to the disruption resulting from the proximity of the jets to the body of incoming air to the engine. Many of the newer bikes are now attempting to shroud the jet inlets as much as possible and to create a 'dead zone' in this area, but the Flo-Comm is a far better way to go about it. The adjustability, which seams to be your hang-up here, is useful, but only to a certain extent. Your fixation on the FC adjustment is like trying to adjust the bass, midrange, and high notes on your stereo by fiddling around with the treble knob. It’s only one of many factors to consider. Flo-Commander does not attack the jet kit manufacturers or ridicule their products. They highly endorse using a jet kit as most bikes greatly benefit from having certain fuel delivery problems corrected.
 

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I have no first hand experience with them and have also heard both extremely positive things as well as general damnation . There is a real possibility that it possibly could work very well on some bikes but not on others - it's up to tuners to hazzard the guess as to whether it's worth it or not :eg , R1 owners seem to praise it but it seems like it does diddly to slight harm on ZX6's and apparently 9's . I guess I'll wait for more info to place any judgement on the Flo Commander - or at least have the chance to play around with the system . Given that a few people with FCR's claim big improvements , I might have to throw the 39's back on my NT and see what happens - the absolute worst that can happen is I lose a few bucks :shrug


Regarding performance parts companies and their R&D : there are many , many cases where popular products that are generally thought to work well simply don't . Example , put a timing advancer in your run of the mill FZR600 and it'll lose power - but since they were the trendy thing to have , many a Fizzer ended up with one . Dynojet recommended taking a holesaw to the first Ram Air ZX-7's because they didn't have experience setting up pressurized airboxes - I saw several bikes at the shop turned into ill running top end only monsters using what was supposed to be sound advice ... and it goes on . The Flo Commander would hardly be the first ill-advised or overhyped performance item ever - whether its as much snake oil as drop in the *fuel boosters* , oil additives , Slick 50 and Splitfire plugs remains to be seen ...
 

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Joel647,
My first exposure was on my own bike, a heavily modified ZX-11 with just a tad over 170 hp on my Dyno. Although the bike had great power and was impressive in all areas of haul-ass down the highway exploits, I was generally disappointed with the bike's in-town, low speed behavior. Most, if not all the problems focused around the FCR41's. I spent months tinkering with different needles, jet sizes, float levels, etc. I also followed very extensive tuning procedures and all of this with my Dyno to confirm proper ratios. I was even considering going back to the OEM carbs, as I knew they behaved much better in general operation. I even read something by Kevin Cameron explaining why ‘your big racing flat slides will never be as sweet as the OEM units’ for around town riding. As a last resort I gave the Flo-Comm a try. What could it hurt, right? That had to be one of the biggest surprises in my entire motorcycling career. The carbs instantly performed beautifully. They went from one of the worst set-ups I ever had the absolute best. That particular bike picked over 10hp at only 5000 rpm. Even the big bore kit, headwork, supercrank, all paled by comparison. It had an almost electric motor feel. It fixed problems I didn’t know I had.

With what I have learned since then, my rather large FCR’s benefited greatly from the Flo-Commander by having far better atomization of fuel. I think that at lower speeds the fuel was just sheeting along the floor of the carbs and contributed little to proper combustion. All carbureted bikes benefit by eliminating this same situation, although, exactly as you suggest, some more than others. There are also a lot of folks out there that will never believe in the Flo-Commander, fuel injection, computers, or higher education. Anything they don’t understand gets an automatic thumbs-down. I assure you that they do indeed work. I've installed probably a hundred or so and nearly all have been 'extremely' excited about the improvement. So far, I have had one installation where the owner claimed he couldn't tell any difference. Hopefully I'll get an opportunity to work on that one again. At the time I did not have a Dyno or any way to truly sort it out. As far as I'm concerned, the Flo-Commander should be standard equipment, right along with a good pipe, and a jet kit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
DaveL said:
There are also a lot of folks out there that will never believe in the Flo-Commander, fuel injection, computers, or higher education. Anything they don’t understand gets an automatic thumbs-down.

As far as I'm concerned, the Flo-Commander should be standard equipment, right along with a good pipe, and a jet kit.
Eeek.. Please say that wasn't directed at me...
(Just in case it was) For the millionth time I do understand it.
I believe FI is the cure for everything including cancer (except when you put a Power Commander on it!!! Just re-write or replace the box!).
Hugher educated: yup. Actually need some more but who has the time.

So now you need a Flo-Commander AND a jet kit?
:crackup

Hey can we please pick something else to argue about? This one's getting boring. We're both repetaing ourselves and you've degraded to personal attacks...
Not sports though... Not a fan of organized sports...

How about who would win in a fight: Superman or Atom Ant! You pick.
 

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Huey , you are being shrill - there's no need for it .


One thing about the Flo Commander that has me wondering is the possibility it could give better results on a dyno - especially on a bike with a pressurized airbox - than IRL . Like I said , I really don't have any real experience with them so as of now I'm totally neutral - they might work- to at least some measurable degree but I am sceptical of most things' claims . I do wonder how many people who are praising them installed a jet kit at the same time and their praise of the Flo Commander is a false positive so to speak ??? There was an article in Roadracing World in 94 or so where the supposed method/item being tested on a GSXR1100 was GMD's then fairly new *Sweet Numbers* frame alignment . All was well and good that he compared lap times before and after - except that he also added a Fox shock , made changes to front and rear ride heights , installed a shorter GSXR750 swingarm and different tires at the same time - yet the author still raved about what an improvement that frame alignment made ...


FWIW , the 39mm FCR's for my Hawk are/were good for ~ 4-5 peak hp but make it far less fun than it could be as a streetbike- except for WFO when it's daggum fun so I just run stock carbs with a Factory 3.0 kit and it works as well as I ask it to . I'll take the loss of 4 peak hp for much better throttle resonse any day but it might be fun to play with to see if it could possibly help partial throttle metering .


My final thought on fueling as I don't have anything else to say about the FC : I have dicked around enough with carbs on bikes and FI systems on cars ( mainly on things that were never made to go any faster like Hawks and 400's and turbo Civics so it serves me right ) that I have learned to curse either of them equally and also that what someone has *proven* to work on their shop dyno doesn't necessarily work on my bike/car at any given time regardless of who else swears by it . However , being objective about something works both ways - play nice ;)
 

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Huey130,

I've got other things to do as well, but you continue to make statements that suggest that you truly don't understand how the Flo-Commander works at all. In your last post you said "So now you need a Flo-Commander AND a jet kit?" If you had even the slightest notion of how the system worked, that question wouldn't need to be asked at all. Of course you need to have a jet kit installed. If the system has fundamental jetting problems, how are you going to be able to correct it with an 'across-the-board adjustment on the Flo-Commander. A jet kit corrects the fuel delivery problems while the Flo-Commander deals only with the air used to atomize the fuel as it enters the throat of the carburetor. If the fuel is being delivered in the wrong amounts, it's too late for the Flo-Comm to do very much about it. When you don't understand how this stuff works your dealing within an incomplete hand. It's little wonder your applications haven't worked out especially well. I often find that those who scream, "I understand it, I understand it" really don't have a clue, while those who say, "Could you explain just how this works?" often know more about something that I do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
DaveL said:
Huey130,

I've got other things to do as well, but you continue to make statements that suggest that you truly don't understand how the Flo-Commander works at all. In your last post you said "So now you need a Flo-Commander AND a jet kit?" If you had even the slightest notion of how the system worked, that question wouldn't need to be asked at all. Of course you need to have a jet kit installed. If the system has fundamental jetting problems, how are you going to be able to correct it with an 'across-the-board adjustment on the Flo-Commander. A jet kit corrects the fuel delivery problems while the Flo-Commander deals only with the air used to atomize the fuel as it enters the throat of the carburetor. If the fuel is being delivered in the wrong amounts, it's too late for the Flo-Comm to do very much about it. When you don't understand how this stuff works your dealing within an incomplete hand. It's little wonder your applications haven't worked out especially well. I often find that those who scream, "I understand it, I understand it" really don't have a clue, while those who say, "Could you explain just how this works?" often know more about something that I do.
Dave. Call me @ home 770-974-0880.
It's painfully obvious now that you don't read anything I write... I have no reason why you don't... Or maybe you're reading something into it.
Anyway: I know you need jet kits. Everything I've ever written said you need jet kets. I was making fun of you.

When you said: "The Flo-Commander has little to do with a jet kit. It will make improvements with or without the addition of a jet kit. " and "I also am no big fan of jet kits. I much prefer the Flo-Commander" I was pretty sure at that point that you were suggesting that a Flo-commander would solve all your jetting problems (I still actually am convinced you thought that and am kinda glad you're changing your tune a bit).

Anything further that I type now I'd regret so I'll just leave well enough alone and wait for your call... Maybe you'll understand me more (or I you) if we talk instead of type.

For the millionth and one time: I understand how it works. I understand how jet kits work (and actually teach classes about it). I understand how fuel injection works (and wrote a paper on it that's published here somewhere). I know where babies come from. I know who killed MacBeth. So stop telling me what I do and don't know please.
 

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Huey130,
You sent me a personal message saying that this isn't anything personal, but you continued to make this some kind of schoolyard dispute. Sorry, but I'm not about to resort to that. If you want to continue to discuss this product, that’s fine, but I'm not going to participate in your kind of banter. I have a great many customers that 'know' that the Flo-Commander delivers as advertised. I can't sit back, however, and allow someone that has very little exposure to the device and absolutely no success with it attempt to deprive others from using it.

Joel647
The overwhelming majority of my applications have been to bikes already set up with jet kits. Typically, these people were 'far' more impressed with it than they were with their initial jet kit installations. You do bring up an excellent point though. So many guys give credit to the installation of a pipe or even a jet kit, while much of the improvement was a result of the overall set-up. I also think this accounts for the incredible gains in power we all hear about. For example, I especially like Micron header systems, yet when I ordered one the other day, they claimed I would see a gain of over 18HP for the ZX-12. We actually picked up about a little over 4 HP, which is about what I actually expected. The same can be said of the jet kit people. I have, on several occasions, contacted them about the far less than claimed gains in power on a particular machine. Instead of the huge gain in power, the Dyno would register something far less and far more typical. They usually respond with something like, "Wow, that pretty good, actually”. I have talked with the Flo-Commander folks many times and while they assured me that I would see improvements, that never tossed up any numbers. And I appreciate that kind of honesty, especially these days. I don’t appreciate the widespread marketing ploy of ‘out-claiming’ the other guy because I’m the one that has to present the ‘actual’ results and must take the extra time to educate the customer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
DaveL said:
Huey130,
You sent me a personal message saying that this isn't anything personal, but you continued to make this some kind of schoolyard dispute. Sorry, but I'm not about to resort to that. If you want to continue to discuss this product, that’s fine, but I'm not going to participate in your kind of banter.
Awwww... You didn't say Merry Christmas back! That's just plain rude.

You've offered no proof, you've personally attacked me with insinuations, you simply keep repeating yourself and you call it a discussion? Funny thing is I actually respected almost every other post you've ever put on here.. yet you get so emotionaly blinded about this one product, that you can't even have a two sided discussion about it. Why? I'm gonna laugh my ass off when I found out your brother owns the shop in Alabama! :D

Hey by the way you may wanna start defending the Flo-commander at WERA.com and GeorgiaSportbike.com ... Lotta non-believers there too... Some actually know you! But you will be happy to know that one guy has had success with it! They all must not understand how it works either.

The funniest part of all of this is your argument (and I'll paraphrase alot for you): I say I've tried it twice with no success. You say I don't understand it and that you have plenty of people that like it (do they understand it better than I?). Think about your 'argument": "You tried it and it didn't work for you = how can you not like it!?!?!"
You at first say that you like it better than a jet kit. You then recant and say it helps a jet kit.
You've never once offered to prove it to me. Or try to see what I don't understand (which is nothing BTW) and maybe try to further explain that part. Instead you simply start singing from the rooftop how your right and I'm an idiot. Sorry if I disagree with you on that.

So I'll let you live in the little world you have created for yourself with the final thought: You can tune the circuit with the Jet Needle, Needle Jet, Main Jet, and float level, but this requires the carbs be taken off, (in most cases), disassembled, adjusted, parts changed, then reassembled, re-installed, and tried again, obviously very time consuming. Even with factory adjustable air bleeds it's a slower tuning process and you have limited adjustments. With this unit you have infinite adjustability.

With this new innovation, the user can simply, adjust the thumb screw, (without removing the carbs & without even shutting the engine down,) greatly reducing tuning time on the Dyno.
Another effect it has, especially at the lower and mid rpm range, is that it tends to stabilize the flow and keeps the intake pulses from having adverse effects on fuel and air flow at certain rpms.

That is an exerpt from flo-commanders own website circa 2001. It clearly suggests that you don't have to change the Needle, Needle Jet, Main Jet, and float level (what most people refer to as a jet kit)... Something you have already said is not true. Well Mr. Leonard I'm just not sure who to believe any more.
 

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Finally we're starting to get somewhere. This is the first time you've even suggested looking at any sort of evidence. Your last post really takes the cake. You jump all around bringing up everything you can think of except the real issue. So lets take some the latest drivel.
1. I don't have any relatives living in Alabama, let alone a brother. The only person in my family that has ever owned a 'shop' of any kind is me, whatever that has to do with anything.

2. I'm absolutely certain that there are 'non-believers' anywhere you care to look. Like I said before, we could easily find thousands of folks that are absolutely positive that Harley Davidson's are the fastest, smoothest, and best-engineered motorcycles ever produced. Why does this fail to impressive you and anyone that doesn't like the Flo-Comm does?

3. I should have known you wouldn't understand the following: You admit to having 'no success' after two installations. I have had great success with something close to a hundred installations. Apparently you think this somehow gives you creditability. To me this looks like total failure of your installations, not the product.

4. The text taken from Flo-Commanders website, as I would expect, did no include their own statements about the ‘limited adjustability’ of the Flo-Comm valve. In some instances, where the jet kit is extremely close, the Flo-Commander’s adjustment can indeed be all that’s needed to dial things in. I always attempt to get the system jetted as close as possible before making any attempt to fine-tune with the Flo-Commander. Anyone that really understands the system and not just doing everything to bring about failure would automatically correct all other adjustment aspects first. I have on more than one occasion found some jet kits, however, to be a complete waste of money. On these occasions I’ve found that just using the correct main jets, proper float level setting, etc to be all that was needed. Conversely, some bikes are in great need of what the jet kit companies offer. It just isn’t as simple as something always working or not working. There’s no substitute for proper analysis and then making the best correction. I’m not about to let superstition, prejudice, or a bad experience dictate my direction. It’s called having an open mind.

Finally I'll put together a few Dyno tests reflecting seperate jet kit and Flo-Commander installations. All of these are at the Dyno station at work so it may take a couple of days to scan them for attachment here,
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
DaveL said:
3. I should have known you wouldn't understand the following: You admit to having 'no success' after two installations. I have had great success with something close to a hundred installations. Apparently you think this somehow gives you creditability. To me this looks like total failure of your installations, not the product.
OK so it has limited adjustability.
You have to use it with another product for it to work right, sometimes... Where's the list of bikes that you have to have a jet kit for? Or the list that says it won't work properly on a ZX-6?
Someone who has a room full of trophies, works for an AMA rider, sponsers and tunes for 3 or 4 dozen club riders, and has a pretty good name building bikes can't understand how it works and obviously can't install it right. (That was factious by the way).
Blah blah blah... ugh...

You need to learn the word cynicism!

Keep your dyno printouts. It's painfully obvious that you don't know how to properly jet a bike. I wouldn't trust anything you put up. You know I never brought this up before but a lot of your posts involved dissatisified customers with your jetting... Until you sold them a flo-commander. Weird that isn't it?

My "great success" comes from never needing a flo-commander because I could get jetting right. That goes for street bikes, race bikes, inline 4s, v-twins, v-4s, thumpers, twins, boxers, kawis, honda, suzuks, yammi's, beemers and yes I've even worked on a few Hardlys... Wait! I'll be honest... there was one SV-650 that still haunts me... but I think it was the combination of worn out needles and a user that would always forget to bring the new ones to the dyno... But that's just one case.

You know I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt that all of this is a huge misunderstanding because of the limitations of the web and its inability to read a persons inflections... Y'all open Friday? Next week? Maybe we can work through all this?

Are you like this about everything or just this product? Errrr... This really isn't about the Flo-commander anymore is it?
 
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