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Discussion Starter #1
Here is a question that I have often considered:
Is the there absolute right and wrong in the world or is all right and wrong relative to the person who is making the decision and the situation they are in at the time?

Here are a couple of examples:
Stealing is wrong, but is stealing to feed ones family OK?
Killing is wrong, but is killing during wartime acceptable?

Just looking to see what people think about this.
 

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I tend to think that you just answered your own question. Morality is a personal issue and different circumstance bear different moral principals.
 

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most would say the world is colored in shades of gray...
I WISH things were black and white, but they're not.. :(
 

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Huey130 said:
Just like brides and grooms in Alabama:
Everything is relative.
Bwahahahaha...too funny!

I tend to agree with the "everything is gray" deal....of course some things (rape for example) would be pretty hard to justify....however I am sure in some wierd way someone would. *shrug*
 

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Discussion Starter #7
ziadel said:
most would say the world is colored in shades of gray...
I WISH things were black and white, but they're not.. :(
That is where I differ from you. I believe that the world is NOT SHADES OF GREY, but is black and white. Both of the examples that I posted I believe are wrong, no matter how one tries to justify them.

But I wanted to see how other people view issues like these.
 

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I think it's relative as far as I am concerned, but the law is the law, and that's very very black and white.
 

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It is based on your beliefs, not so much religous but on how you make decisions. I think stealing is wrong, and based on how I was raised and the social ideals I have it is wrong. Someone else has a completely differnt set of criteria to decide whether something is wrong or not. Yes there are laws that govern the soceity that we live in but those laws were created by human beings usung their own belief system.

There is no such thing as absolute right and wrong, just peoples perception of what it is to them.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
StrickSVS said:
It is based on your beliefs, not so much religous but on how you make decisions. I think stealing is wrong, and based on how I was raised and the social ideals I have it is wrong. Someone else has a completely differnt set of criteria to decide whether something is wrong or not. Yes there are laws that govern the soceity that we live in but those laws were created by human beings usung their own belief system.

There is no such thing as absolute right and wrong, just peoples perception of what it is to them.
Then what do you think of this example (This is someone else's example that I am borrowing with permission)

The setting: A thief is casing a jewelry store so he can rob it. He has entered it to check out any visible alarm settings, locks, layout, etc. In the process, he has unexpectedly gotten involved in a discussion with the owner of the jewelry store whose hobby is the study of philosophy and believes that truth and morals are relative.
"So," says the owner, "everything is relative. That is why I believe that all morals are not absolute and that right and wrong is up to the individual to determine within the confines of society. But there is no absolute right and wrong."
"That is a very interesting perspective," says the thief. "I was brought up believing that there was a God and that there was right and wrong. But I abandoned all of that and I agree with you that there is no absolute right and wrong and that we are free to do what we want."
The thief leaves the store and returns that evening and breaks in. He has disabled all the alarms and locks and is in the process of robbing the store. That is when the owner of the store enters through a side door. The thief pulls out a gun. The owner cannot see the man's face because he is wearing a ski mask.
"Don't shoot me," says the owner. "Please take whatever you want and leave me alone."
"That is exactly what I plan to do," says the thief.
"Wait a minute. I know you. You are the man that was in the store earlier today. I recognize your voice."
"That is very unfortunate for you," says the thief. "Because now you also know what I look like. And since I do not want to go to jail I am forced to kill you."
"You cannot do that," says the owner.
"Why not?"
"Because it is not right," pleads the desperate man.
"But did you not tell me today that there is no right and wrong?"
"Yes, but I have a family, children, that need me, and a wife."
"So? I am sure that you are insured and that they will get a lot of money. But since there is no right and wrong it makes no difference whether or not I kill you. And since if I let you live you will turn me in and I will go to prison. Sorry , but that will not do."
"But it is a crime against society to kill me. It is wrong because society says so."
"As you can see, I don't recognize society's claim to impose morals on me. It's all relative. Remember?"
"Please to not shoot me. I beg you. I promise not to tell anyone what you look like. I swear it!"
"I do not believe you and I cannot take that chance."
"But it is true!" I swear I'll tell no one."
"Sorry, but it cannot be true because there is no absolute truth, no right and wrong, no error, remember? If I let you live and then I left, you will break your so-called promise because it is all relative. There is no way I could trust you. Our conversation this morning convinced me that you believe everything is relative. Because of that, I cannot believe you will keep your word. I cannot trust you.
"But it is wrong to kill me. It isn't right!"
"It is neither right or wrong for me to kill you. Since truth is relative to the individual, if I kill you, that is my truth. And, it is obviously true that if I let you live I will go to prison. Sorry, but you have killed yourself."
"No. Please do not shoot me. I beg you."
"Begging makes no difference."
.... Bang....

If relativism is true, then was it wrong to pull the trigger?
Perhaps someone might say that it is wrong to take another life needlessly. But why is that wrong, if there is no standard of right or wrong?
Others have said that it is a crime against society. But, so what? If what is true for you is simply true, then what is wrong with killing someone to protect yourself after you have robbed him?
If is true for you that to protect yourself you must kill, then who cares what society says?
Why is anyone obligated to conform to social norms? Doing so is a personal decision.

Though not all relativists will behave in an unethical manner, isn't relativism a contributor to overall anarchy since it is a justification to do whatever you want?

Any thoughts?
 

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Black and white......yes and no :confused

What about David?

Moses and the Midian's?

Joshua and his attack on the men of Ai?


Just a FEW examples of Killing and war related killing. Granted we're not LIVING in old test. times BUT.....still.

Now there is a flip side to saying Killing in a war or from direction from God is OK...look at 9.11 :( THEY killed "suppossedly under direction of God" and in a "war"


Explain your take on that Hawk if you would please :thumb
 

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Why is anyone obligated to conform to social norms? Doing so is a personal decision.
No one is obligated. However if they choose not to conform to society then they are punished by societies rules when cought. Enery thing people do is a personal decision. There are no laws that ban free thought, and people will alway make decisions based on what they believe is right and wrong. Hitler and the Nazi's believed they were right to slaughter the jews, Sadam believes he is right, and there are countless examples of this through history. Don't get me wrong I certainly do not beleive in sesless acts of violence,or crime, and do not condone tham at all. In my view those acts are wrong. I am not trying to take the side of the criminal either.
 

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Hawk said:

If relativism is true, then was it wrong to pull the trigger?
You are asking about relativism but confusing it with amorality. Relativism is a logical response to the difficulty of establishing absolute rules. Amorality is the idea that there is no good reason to be moral. Amorality is different from evil in that evil recognizes what morality is and decides to set its self against that which it recognizes as moral.
 

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Also, in this robbery you set up relativism didn't make it okay to shoot the store owner. Sure the robber was in jeopardy of going to jail, but that does not justify killing. The only time killing would be justified is when your life itself is at risk (which explains why it is morally ok for soldiers to kill because their lives are at risk). I have to agree that amorality and relativism have been confused here.
 

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CasterTroy said:
But what if I percieve it's perfectly OK to kill you for your chuck taylor shoes?



GEEEZ I'm dating myself here :rolleyes: mind as well have said parachute pants and fat laces :laughing
lol chucks and parachute pants rocked. i need to get me some chucks for old times. :D

anyways...yes, its perfectly ok to kill me, i dont mind...to bad the law does. :D :twofinger :D
 

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Hawk, In my younger days I lived up in the NW by the BC canadian border and I used to rob guys coming from canada with marijuana. I'd get em in parking lots coming down, and A few times I got people going up with money. I'm not talking $20 sacks, it was several pounds at a time, and dollar values went as high as 20k. I was in some pretty scarry situations and all the while I was stealing from people who were supplying the weed or looking to buy the weed. Was I wrong for any of that? I know what I think, but curious as to what you think.
 
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