Cycle Forums: Motorcycle and Sportbikes Forum banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
SalKahn brought up a point that made me stop and pause and I wanted to get some opinions from some Aprilia riders.

I am getting ready to put a set of Renegade pipes on this weekend. I just figured I would put the chip that comes with them in the bike and take out the FactoryPro chip that I have now.

My thinking was that the Rene chip would be tweaked to work best with the Rene pipes.

Has anyone, beside SalKahn, had any experience runnning the FactoryPro chip with the Renes? If so what is your comparitive assesment? :confused

Thanks.

Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
781 Posts
I don't have the Renegade chip, but have experience with a few others:

RSC - Decent chip. Definite power gain, but rough off/on throttle transitions and occasional stumbles. Still better than stock.

Arrow - Allegedly the Euro RSV chip. A bit smoother than the RSV

BB Power - Not enough O's in SMOOOOOOTH!!! Very clean running and was removed from my bike 'cause I got a Factory Pro that I wanted to test.

FactoryPro - At first, the bike ran VERY rich and was prone to stalling. I had to tweak the fuel injection to get the chip working properly - Basically reset the air bleed screws in the throttle bodies (Idle mixture) and the CO pots on the front of the ECU (overall mix). Really just some screwdriver fiddling. Definite power gain, and as smooth as the BB Power. I had a very hard time deciding between the two, but in the end laziness won out: I had tweaked the bike to run the F/P and didn't want to put it back.

Oh yeah - If you didn't get it, the Renegade airkit is a very worthwhile addition. I picked up 2~6hp the entire way from 4K to 8500, and the intake roar is positively addictive!

Scott :snatched
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Scotteq - thanks for the tips on the FP chip. The previous owner did a good job of sorting the bike I think, but now that I as I ride it a little more I will definitley be on the lookout for these things.

I was fortunate enough to be able to secure the pipes and airbox kit as a "slightly used" deal. Evidently wives and girlfriends don't like the Rene's!!!!

espresso - thanks for that info. That is the type of stuff I was looking for. I was a little perplexed as to how a pipe manufacturer, alebit a very good one from all I have heard, was going to have the werewithal to handle writing an essentially new EPRPOM.

Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
781 Posts
The FP chip is designed to work well only with a very limited range of fuel pressures.
No flame, no argument, but... Well... Marc's gotta put a stake in the ground somewhere!! :p Fuel pressure should at least be something close to identical for a model year or two!

My understanding of the way FI works is that, instead of being (more or less) continuously open to flow, like a carburator, fuelling is controlled by the duration the injector is open for a given cycle: Shorter times give less fuel. So if you can't change a chip, an adjustable fuel pressure regulator would serve to move the entire fuelling curve up/down by indreasing/decreasing the pressure behind the injectors. Add pressure to enrichen.

Kind of a caveman approach, but...

A number of bikes have come out of the box with notably higher fuel pressures.
A little more than a number :) Aprilia increased the fuelling output pressure in the 01/02 RSVs. So, unless Marc has created a new chip, you'll need a pressure regulator on a newer Mille if you want to run the Factory Pro chip.



Though I'm sure Bob really only wanted to know if there's better chip out there... Oh well, TMI...

Scott :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I am interested. I have had this bike for 3 weeks now and want to know as much as I can. Now I am wondering about how to go about checking the fuel pressure. The $90 for a pressure gauge seems to be a lot for something that I don't think I would use much.

I am going to have to call my local shop and see if they have a guage.

-Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,990 Posts
If I remember right, the fuel pressure get's referenced to intake vacumn, if you measure that vacumn it's all over the place, my buddy who has a R also, tied the fuel pressure's vacumn hose to both cylinders which really evens the pressure out. But what I got to start thinking about is if the map was made while the pressure was jumping up and down to the intake pulses, the map would do simular things. So I left mine stock, Evoluzone's fp regulator worries me the same way. Now if I had Marc redo my bike on the dyno with the fpr installed ........
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,990 Posts
My bad, MAF vacumn connection is to a single throttle body, my buddy re-routed it to connect to both with a t connector, but that's what the engine uses to select maps, and such.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,990 Posts
On the way home last night after I wrote that, I was thinking that there has to be some signal conditioning going on too.
I don't think he did before and after dyno's, on different dyno's both bikes have about the same hp 110rwhp, I have a full arrow, he has Arrow slip-on's.
He didn't like the compression braking when he first got the bike, his other street bike is a RZV500R, which doesn't have any.
He ended up messing with the air bleeds, the tps, he did the lines to the maf, and maybe the trimmer too (has FP chip too).
But he got it to not shutdown as hard by adjusting the tps so the ecu doesn't really think the throttle is full closed and stop the injectors. He's got it running good, and he likes it now.
I just felt that whatever the ecu did, averaging the 2 cylinders together would make the value it read different, changing the calibration.

As a reference he's been a GMAC Cert. Emissions Tech for probably 15 years. And has quite a collect of bikes and cars.

And this really had nothing to do with a fpr, brain fart:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,990 Posts
espresso said:
Heh, I gotcha now. ;)

If the sensor is calibrated to average out the MAF of a single cylinder and you somehow got it to read the MAF of both together, it should read twice the airflow, I would think... If it's only reading peak then it should not change. I'd love to look at what he did and ride the bike!
Well for the ecu to get aiflow from a pressure sensor, it has to probably look it up in a chart of somekind, but that value is based on the airflow of one runner/one cylinder if you connect them you'll get the average vacumn, ie they should be the same when both intakes are closed with throttle opened some. Once a single intake opens the vacumn in that one should drop, but with connected runners (through the MAF vacumn line) the other runner will bleed air through the line limiting how much of a vacumn pulse the maf see, and visa-versa.

As for how it runs, just like mine, except it doesn't slow down right away when you close the throttle, more like a I4 maybe. That was weird when I rode it, I like closeing the throttle and feeling the back tire pulling on the chassie, maybe a little like automatic trailbraking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,990 Posts
Oh, and as for ecu signal conditioning of the maf, they probably just sample it once, twice, x times a cycle. If they pick their sample point they can capture any single value they want.
If they sample while both valves are closed, it won't matter, if they sample right before the intake closes it would matter. It would calculate load wrong, because it wouldn't get full vacumn.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Wow

I am following about 90% of the technical aspect of this, but I think I have a handle on the end result. I am still trying to get a feel for the how. It would probably help me to actually look at the engine! :rolleyes

One of the things I don't like about the bike, or rather have not gotten used to, is the effect of coming off the throttle. I suppose it is inherent to all twins. Just waaaay different then my old ZX-7R. Need to be much more gentle. I think I would like the results of this mod.

Is this a common mod made by race teams?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
781 Posts
Interesting discussion, and (to be honest) a little over my head...

I settled on setting my idle a little on the high side (~1500RPM). That gave me little less engine braking, and smoother downshifts. Best of all, no fiddling with the plumbing. Vacuum lines are one PITA that I'd rather not get involved with.

Scott :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,990 Posts
Scotteq said:
Interesting discussion, and (to be honest) a little over my head...

I settled on setting my idle a little on the high side (~1500RPM). That gave me little less engine braking, and smoother downshifts. Best of all, no fiddling with the plumbing. Vacuum lines are one PITA that I'd rather not get involved with.

Scott :p
Actually, by doing that you might be doing the same thing as my buddy. On his if you go into dia-mode the tps reads 1 I think, which means the eco thinks the throttle is still open. On decel, when it reads 0 I'm pretty sure the ecu cuts fuel off above some rpm. At closed throttle the tps number according to the manual is suppose to read 0.
But by changing your idle up, your tps may read 1 closed.
He said that lessened braking, and like I said it had quite a bit less than mine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,990 Posts
Oh as far as the ecu cutting off fuel, I found that on the highway if I pulled in the clutch, and closed the throttle quickly it would just quit. I think that's the ecu cutting off the fuel, but it stalls before it figures out the rpm is dropping to idle, not decel with clutch out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
781 Posts
But by changing your idle up, your tps may read 1 closed.
I guess I'm more confused than I though I was.... :confused :confused :confused

Your idle adjustment and Throttle Position Senson are wholly independent of each other. Even if they weren't, wouldn't setting the TPS so that it reads 1 (open throttle) as opposed to -1 (overly closed throttle/loose cable) just tend to make your motor run richer at idle? If that were the case, why wouldn't you just adjust the air bleed screws to do that instead? That's the "proper" way, and is less effort, isn't it? Or am I confusing myself?

Anyways, I set mine so the TPS reads properly (Zero - 0). I also left the idle adjuster alone, and set my idle using the air bleed screws on the sides of the throttle bodies. After all, that's what they're there for, right? Please forgive me if I'm just being overly sensitive, but why bother to go through all that trouble to 'fool' the bike's computer, when setting the bike up to run properly using what Aprilia provides isn't very hard? :confused

For a newb, 30~45 minutes spent under the tank with a set of vacuum guages and a couple screwdrivers is really all it takes. It's not even important for the cylinders to be perfectly synched/balanced: The (Mille) service manual says you should use the trim screws in the ECU to set proper CO emissions, and that you only need to check that vacuum is in the correct range (22.5 cm Hg, plus or minus ten percent). A decent mechanic should be done in 10~15 minutes.

Here's a Falco page on the procedure, including pics. Mille is the same, except you have more bodywork to wade through. CYLINDER SYNCHRONIZATION and
IDLE MIXTURES


**********************


As far as stalling during on/off throttle transitions - What's your idle set at? During an early service, the mechanic set my bike up to idle at 900 RPM or so, and I had that problem. Raising my idle back to proper levels cured it. (The manual says 1200RPM, btw.)


Sorry if I'm mis-interpreting what you're posting...

Scott :toothy
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top